Episode Transcript
Speaker 1 00:00:01 Welcome to the Refinitiv Sustainability Perspectives Podcast, where we share examples of leadership and innovation. Small entrepreneurial businesses, large mega corporations, and all types of enterprises in between are seeing a global shift in perspectives around the role of business in society. From E s G investing to sustainable finance, to social impact in our communities, we're on a journey to leverage data and intelligence to make the best business decisions possible. Enjoy the podcast.
Speaker 1 00:00:37 Hello everyone, and thank you for joining. This is Kesa Shreen and today's guests, ARESA Nash Carter and Jackie Kieran of Bright Insights Global, a women owned consultancy focused on building corporate engagement and innovation in key African markets. Now they're offering ranges from providing insights and intelligence on African markets to supporting sustainable development and infrastructure initiatives throughout the region. Jackie, thank you for joining us inside Nash Carter, thank you for joining us from South Africa. Well, thank you. Thank you so much for hosting us. It's a pleasure to be here, Kesa. Really great. So first of all, what does sustainable development and infrastructure mean? And also how did you become interested in this? Oh, wow. We could spend a lot of time talking about that, but real quick, and then I'll let Sayda jump in a little bit. Um, so SA and I, um, had worked together on several projects, and over time we realized that one is we worked really, really well together, right?
Speaker 1 00:01:41 Those great synergy, uh, in, in kind of our belief in our, our core values and what we brought to the table. And we'd been thinking about really just bringing that energy together and doing something that was meaningful and something we're passionate about. And Africa, doing business in Africa happened to be one of them. And so we decided that with our over 40 plus combined years, we're not telling our age here, but <laugh>, that the, the expertise and experience that we'd received, um, and the passion that we had for Africa, we could bring it together to help like-minded, uh, organizations do better business in Africa. And so in regards to infrastructure, it obviously means, you know, the common one that we know, which is, you know, roads and, and buildings and, and railways and all of that kind of stuff. But we like to think about it as a, a little bit expanded beyond that to include systems. So for instance, the banking systems and the business systems, any education and all of that.
Speaker 2 00:02:34 Yeah, I think what I would add is primarily around Africa and I, I think if we think about, um, sustainability and we think about the African context, certainly when I moved, uh, to Cape Town about four years ago and spent, um, a big chunk of that time traveling around the continent, um, working on innovation projects for, for Thompson Reuters at the time, it became clear to me that there was an amazing opportunity on the table to really think about, um, building products and solutions and, um, services that, um, that were sustainable not only from a sort of environmental, um, impact perspective, but also thinking about them, um, in terms of business models, right? Right. Um, through this lens of, in part, the un sustainable, the development goals. So looking at the u n SDGs, almost like a platform, um, for which to, um, build out these new products, build out these new services, um, and also these business models.
Speaker 1 00:03:37 Great. And, and I'm glad you mentioned the UN SDGs in context of, um, infrastructure and these opportunities in Africa. When we discuss investment opportunities in Africa, I know for some this is gonna be contradictory to what they may think they know about the region and what they've read about the region. And I'll give you an example. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, in October, 2019, Brookings reported that Africa was key to the UN's sustainable development goal around eradication of extreme poverty. And some UN and World Bank forecasts are saying that they thought it would be pretty difficult for Africa, Africa to achieve that. Um, some of the key issues they brought up, and some of the key challenges are to increase agricultural productivity, the African needs to do that, and also addressing risk and conflict. Now, we all know that there are loads of stories, um, similar to this. So how can investors, individual are institutional, how can investors really educate themselves to go beyond stories like these to really understand what's going on in the environment, what's going on in terms of investment opportunities, and really see some of the things that you all are talking about now.
Speaker 1 00:04:45 So we usually hear about tragedies and, and Ebola and corruption and all of that. There's a lot more going on in Africa, and I think it's, it's really, um, the responsibility of mainstream media to be really begin to do better reporting around it. And by mainstream media, I'm, I'm thinking about the key, uh, you know, publications that business people look for. It's hard to get any meaningful information from that, but that doesn't mean that there isn't. So you, you, you, you quoted the Brookings in Institute, which does really amazing research and Reuters news also. Uh, you know, while there's still room to improve, they do really decent reporting, uh, in, in regards to more current stories, uh, in Africa. I think that, um, uh, one of the things that the world really needs to, to, to pay attention to is one is Africa. First is a young continent, all right?
Speaker 1 00:05:34 With the average age being about 20 years old, um, while the west is grappling with an aging, uh, challenge. So for instance, in Germany and, and Japan, that is 46 to, so 47 in comparison to the 20 year old, uh, gap we're talking about in 20 25, 1 in five people on the planet will be African, right? So we've got to pay attention to that. And you have this really, um, entrepreneurial tech innovation adaptation, uh, energy going on in Africa, which is key for innovation and, and, uh, you know, just where the world is heading. So I think it's, it's, it's important for, um, one is for people to, investors to, uh, to take the time to really, um, get engaged because I think you can't afford to ignore it. Uh, then on the other hand, I think it's really just taking it upon yourself to educate yourself.
Speaker 1 00:06:23 I think it's, it's, you know, um, going beyond the mainstream, going beyond the, the stereotypes that's put out there on Africa and, and tapping into the diaspora, for instance. That's an amazing resource, uh, for anybody interested in really learning about what's going on in the ground and what the opportunities are and what the, you know, potential challenges are. Um, it's visiting the continent, right? And not treating it as a monolithic, uh, space, right? So while, you know, people talk, think about Africa as a country, it really is 54 countries with over 1000 languages, uh, you know, that we speak. And so just the same way I heard, you know, one of our dear friends was telling us, um, you wouldn't go to, let's say, Tennessee to do business the way you would start it in, in New York is the same way we're asking for, you know, business people and investors to really take some time to educate themselves in the different nuances within the regions and the countries themselves. And Iel, I'll turn it over to, to you to add a little bit more to that.
Speaker 2 00:07:19 Yeah. I think one of the most interesting and exciting, uh, points around sustainability, um, in Africa, it really goes back to this idea of leap leapfrogging, right? We often talked about apple and emerging markets more broadly, uh, when it comes to leapfrogging and tech. So sort of jumping over existing infrastructure to be mobile phones only, for example, for, um, interacting and, and connecting around information. Uh, I think what's really interesting when it comes to, um, sustainability and infrastructure and circular systems, et cetera, is that we also have that opportunity, um, in those spaces within the African context as well, right? So to really think about building, um, infrastructure with sustainability, um, at the center of those development projects, right? Um, that is here because there aren't, there, there, there it is sort of open in terms of, um, uh, the opportunity to build from the ground up in, in a way that, um, is designed to be, um, to have a lower, um, carbon footprint, um, and to be more self sustaining. So I think there's also that to keep in mind as well as we think about what the opportunity, um, in Africa, just as kind of a blank slate in some instances, can present to investors who want to be mindful and intention about that kind of investment.
Speaker 1 00:08:51 Great. I love that mindfulness and, and intention intentionality there. Um, particularly as we're talking about building systems from the ground up where we have so many other cultures and societies that have had systems that, to your point, Zeta, there are issues there, but the opportunity here, one of the opportunities is really building that from the ground up. And Jackie, you talked about really treating, um, the individual cultures as such as individual cultures, right? And in context of talking about growth, one of the, um, articles from Reuters, um, June Reuters article points out to foreign investment in Sub-Saharan Africa really growing. Um, it rose 13% in 2018. Um, and according to the un this reversed a downward trend over a couple of years. Uganda, looking at it from a country by country perspective, Uganda saw a 67% jump largely because of oil and gas. And also Ghana is continuing to continuing to see a jump because of oil and gas foreign an investment.
Speaker 1 00:09:45 But what was really interesting to me, according to this article, is that the Southern Africa region is seeing different types of investments. One an automotive plant by a partner, Beijing Automotive Group, and another is 186 million investment in wind farms being built by an Irish firm, um, mainstream renewable energy. So with that being said, could you give us some specific maybe sectors or sub-sectors or even regions that some investors maybe should keep their eyes on in terms of things, investments that we would not have known about beforehand? So maybe just two to three sectors that are really prominent or that you see developing from a growth perspective. There is a lot going on in terms of, uh, sectors and, and investments and all of that going on in Africa. I think the wind firms are also present in Kenya, which is where I'm from, by the way, I didn't mention in my intro that I was born and raised in Nairobi prior to migrating here.
Speaker 1 00:10:39 Uh, so one of the things that's happening that's quite interesting, um, in Africa is because of the, the war, you know, trade, um, uh, disputes going on. Um, this has created tremendous opportunity, uh, within Africa. And what we're seeing is, uh, people, you know, that were looking to China before and now, uh, don't wanna get caught up in, in kind of the trade wars and are looking to Africa to solve for some of the things that they'd prior to that sought out in China. And China is a strong partner to Africa, so they're also, you know, keenly invested in in some of what's going on. So for instance, the textile industry, that is something that's beginning to pick up, right? And there's lots of opportunity there. Um, obviously the tech space Africa is, you know, like I said, we've mentioned already, it's a very young continent.
Speaker 1 00:11:23 Um, uh, it's also really growing CONT continent and the urbanization is, is rapidly, uh, increasing and that presents a lot of opportunity for the, the, um, tech, uh, the mobile tech company and the telco industry as well. So that's, I think it's poised to double in the next few years. I don't remember the numbers off the top of my head. Um, and then mobile banking, so the financial space as well. There's been, uh, lots of innovation in that space. There's still a lot of unbanked people and EN is working on a very interesting project and I'll let her weigh in on that. So there's opportunity in that space in the financial sector as well. Um, so those, you asked for two and I think I've given it more than two, so I'll, lets to add, uh, add her thoughts as well. Oh, that's greats. So the mobile industry, tell us about your, your great project there.
Speaker 2 00:12:06 Yeah, so I think that the two, the students sort of echo and, and, um, then add one more into the next, when I, when I look at the innovation landscape, um, the startup landscape landscape and the tech landscape across the cost command is really sort of FinTech and ad tech that are sort of the two areas that are emerging as having the most sort of activity and investment, um, here. And the project that, um, you both mentioned now kind of sits at the intersection of, of, of both of those areas. And it's bankable farmer. Um, it's, the original idea for that project came out of a series of innovation workshops that we ran with, uh, the large South African banks, um, a few years back. And we heard repeatedly, um, this theme around, um, wanting to lend to small holder farmers and frankly, um, other UMIs along the value chain, um, but not have any, any access to these farmers achieve these businesses, these micro enterprises.
Speaker 2 00:13:17 And, um, also not having any visibility as to whether or not they were good credit risk. And that, Jackie, you mentioned, um, the unbanked or the underbanked. And this is largely, um, that that sector. Um, and so we've been working, um, with a large agricultural services company, um, AFRI based here in South Africa as well, um, to essentially build out a risk model leveraging, um, alternative data sets and a more alternative approach to risk modeling in order to come with a profile that will allow traditional financial institutions to make, um, services available, starting out with loans. But, um, certainly, um, the idea to expand beyond just, um, uh, lending products, and I mean, this is very much at the center of, you know, what the, the, um, innovation ecosystem is, um, is supportive of number one, but then also is, is what's needed, right? By, um, by, by both the ecosystem and, um, the traditional banking sector.
Speaker 1 00:14:22 So Saya, could you dig, help us dig a bit deeper into what that ecosystem looks like? So from what I'm hearing, it sounds like perhaps personal loans, um, which would grow into maybe micro loans or business loans. So we're starting out with the farm. Where do we see the next steps as being in terms of the life cycle? Um, are the trajectory of the types of loans and the types of financial services transactions that will be done, um, within that particular example?
Speaker 2 00:14:52 Yeah, so we are very intentional about looking at, um, lending to what we're calling small commercial funds. So while the loan size may be small relative to other loans, the goal is to loan to small businesses. So these are farmers who view their plot of land, view their farm as an entrepreneurial enterprise. So by definition they're not personal loans. Um, they are meant to be business loans. And then certain, certainly beyond that, um, once they build up a, uh, lending profile, they have repayment, uh, rates and history that we can build into the model, then we can think about expanding services beyond that and uh, perhaps supporting more of the ecosystem around that, around that farmer as well.
Speaker 1 00:15:46 And would you say there is room for other institutions who aren't already in those regions, that there is room for them to enter into those regions so they can be the ones, um, giving out the loan SAE doll? Let you answer first and then Jackie.
Speaker 2 00:16:03 No, absolutely. So the, the what that's the center of the, the, the model and the plan that we're working on is that we bring multiple banks to the table, um, you know, competition breed, but a better quality product in general. And so ultimately the goal is to have a number of different banks on this platform making, uh, lending services available to what would be ultimately millions of farmers on the platform.
Speaker 1 00:16:31 Great. Jackie? No, and, and I think site has covered it, uh, quite well. I, I think I'll just add that, um, you know, there's, there's a space for also the central banks to, to kind of get involved because, um, you know, we have the affordable banking project said is talked about, and then there's obviously room for other financial institutions to, to come along and, and, um, aid in this space. Uh, the central bank role to me is one where, because it's not just a matter of can they get loans, but can they get it on favorable terms cuz they might not have a credit history. And what we found, and Kenya recently, um, launched a solution to try and solve for that, that it nec it wasn't necessarily in favor of the, the, the, the small scale farmers, right? So how do we actually ensure that the interest rate is meaningful and and favorable for the, the, um, the, the loan recipient.
Speaker 1 00:17:24 Uh, and so I think central banks, um, do have a role to play in this as well. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Yeah. One of the things that you touched on, and which I think is so very important is leadership styles. Yes. And how we bring ourselves to the table when we are engaging, um, business or otherwise, when this context engaging in a business transaction are in business discussions with people who have different backgrounds, different cultures, and perhaps even different expectations. I'd love to get your view, Sayda as well as Jackie on how a leader or a business person who, um, is not from the region can come from another region, do business with an African business partner in a way that is both respectful and a way that exudes openness to the new opportunity. Um, I'm a strong believer in, in the role that business leaders and businesses overall play in, in terms of just, uh, progressing and moving Africa along and really allowing Africa to tap into, uh, what we know as the talent.
Speaker 1 00:18:24 Um, so what I believe is there are a lot of organizations that are corp global corporations that are operating in Africa today. Um, some of, some of them are doing pretty well and, and, uh, their, their approach has been quite meaningful. And, uh, and then there's some that are really struggling in terms of really setting culture, um, that is not just, um, uh, a transplant of what's going on in the west into Africa, but taking what we know as global best practices, honoring the culture on the ground, and then growing leadership, uh, with those two, um, you know, into intermingling. Uh, well, and so there's a challenge in terms of, uh, leadership or talent development in to that regard, because you can't transplant the West's culture into the African culture and expect it to be, uh, to be meaningful. And that doesn't mean that there's nothing to learn from the West culture, but you have to respect the African culture as well.
Speaker 1 00:19:20 So I think the first thing to me is, is any leader trying to establish either an organization or wanting to learn or establish themselves is to really understand, uh, the culture that they're going into and what works and what doesn't work. And, uh, that could be done in a myriad of ways. It could, you know, it's, it's obviously listening and exploring and spending some time on the ground. Um, but then also there's certain things that to me are standard regardless of where you are from a global perspective. And that is just being mindful of your leadership style, uh, being mindful of the shadows that you, the shadow you cast as a leader, not, um, approaching it as a, um, from a position of, of, of dominance, right? So just assuming that your way is the best and, and the African way is not, and hence you have to come in and solve and save the situation.
Speaker 1 00:20:12 And we see a lot of that going on, not just in the business space, but also in the non-for-profit space as well. And I think it's really coming in understanding, but also valuing the talent that is there and then figuring out how to tap into that and grow it. And I think to me at least, um, using this approach and, and really focusing on, on building a culture that is meaningful, uh, not just to the business, but to society then tends to have this, uh, bleeding effect, uh, across, uh, some of the things or concerns or issues that we have. We've talked about the, um, the youth and while it is, you know, it's an opportunity from a talent perspective, right? So we have the aging concern on the West in, in regards to talent resources. We have this blooming, um, population in, in Africa.
Speaker 1 00:20:56 Um, if we don't rise to the challenge and ensure that we are actually grooming, engaging, and providing meaningful employment for this, um, this young population, there are risks and challenges that could present themselves as a result of that, of our, our, uh, inattention. And some of those are, you know, some of the risky migration, uh, you know, um, patterns that we've observed recently, right? So when people are trying to leave because there's no opportunity and there's no meaningful job, or if they have a job, it's not meaningful in terms of growing their career and the other is just being radicalized, right? And that becomes a concern not just for Africa, but for the world. So I think that, um, and I've gone aroundabout way in answering this because it's, it's such a short time and I think all of them kind of tie in. Um, I think it's really just being mindful that there is a culture, there's a rich culture, uh, within Africa, and when you're going to do business to understand that, uh, to appreciate that, tap into that, uh, because I think it would be fool hearted not to.
Speaker 1 00:21:50 Um, and then also kind of just really, uh, bring what, you know, as business best practices alongside as well. So just really finding a way to marry the two. Great. And I, and I know c you have a slightly different perspective in that you went from the US into, you mentioned that you traveled around different countries, um, South Africa I guess is your primary location, but I'd love to hear from you, how did you, how did you manage to really bring your leadership style, but on that same end, be able to listen and adapt? Or is that what you did when you travel throughout the different countries or, um, e even in your, your place of residence now? How did you manage that? Right. So I mean, as I mentioned already, I was born and raised in Nairobi and, and moved to New York, and I now call New York Home.
Speaker 1 00:22:33 Um, I have deep passion and de connection and, and the network, uh, in Africa, uh, while working for Thompson Raiders. And that didn't come out in the bio, but I did work for Thompson Raiders for 20 plus years. Uh, I did, uh, you know, part of my, one of my assignments was really to go back to the continent and just really assess, um, some, um, kind of the culture we were going through, um, an enterprise change and really just understand the regions and, and what they were doing well in some opportunity areas. And so I did go to West, east and South Africa, right? So that just really gives you an appreciation of, of all three as an African, I know inherently that they're different <laugh>, you know. And so what is the one thing that you would recommend to someone who maybe is in your shoes, maybe who is American or from another Western, um, country, how would, how should we show up?
Speaker 1 00:23:20 What's the one key that you would leave with someone? Again, I, I go back to the value in, in being a leader who listens mm-hmm. <affirmative> and really pays attention. And part of that project in partnership with a leadership, then the, the managing director was really just to understand and listen to, uh, the, the employees and what the ideas were. And I think it's really creating a space where people can bring their full selves to work and voice what they bring to the table. They're on the ground, their customers are not just people far off. These are customers and people that they intermingle with. And sometimes a solution that might work in New York or London or Paris or wherever it may be, might just need a little tweak, um, when you get two Legos, for instance. Right? And really just being a leader who recognizes that and then taps into this resource that is your employees who connected to the ground and understand what the way of life is and how business is there.
Speaker 1 00:24:10 Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And so, you know, one of the things that, um, at that point through that project that I'm mentioning, was really to create a space where employees could come back to the table and share some of this insight mm-hmm. <affirmative>, because you wanna make sure that it works, right? Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, um, and granted, as a global corporate organization, you wanna have, uh, a set of standards that's consistent throughout, but if it doesn't work in region, um, I think it, it is in your best interest to tap into, uh, the talent that you have within the company, or just go around and visit your customers. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, they will tell you, they'll tell you what works or what doesn't work. And I think there's the assumption because it's done well elsewhere, that it's gonna work, it doesn't work. And I think it's just that little tweak, listening, going out, connecting with a customer, and making sure that you are valuing the voice that your employees bring and the insights they bring.
Speaker 1 00:24:57 Wow. I think that's, that's, uh, yeah. So listening, understanding, recognizing that there are several countries, um, and each one has its own rich culture, such valuable pieces, but I want you to leave us with this. What is the big idea? So what do you think coming down the pipeline next year, in the next couple of years, um, that's really gonna set pick us by surprise, for those of us who don't have the insight that you have. What's the big idea? What's the big thing coming that you wanna predict? Oh, wow, <laugh> Africa is happening. Africa's time is now actually people, I say, you know, I say Africa is happening, but I think Africa's happened. Is are you along, are you involved, um, in this space right now? Is the question that people should be asking themselves? I think I've mentioned a couple of things, reasons why we can't ignore it, but in terms of, uh, you know, recent rough report out of the 10 fastest growing economies, six of those were found in Africa, right?
Speaker 1 00:25:47 And so I, I believe that, um, you know, so has alluded that there's, you know, when you come to the West, there's lots of infrastructure and establishment and institutions and all of that, and it's hard to change those in Africa. You almost have this, I don't wanna say a clean slate, but a, a space that allows you to build systems and organizations for today, right? Because you're, you're really starting from scratch. You're not trying to change a legacy system in some cases. I think that to me is great. I think there's a lot of, um, activity around, um, so I wanna say like the green space mm-hmm. <affirmative>, so you talked about the wind farms, and I think it's just really utilizing what is the natural resources within Africa. Uh, and then also in my mind, I think that, um, the other thing that we're beginning to hear about, um, it's not happening rapidly, but I think it will begin to pick up and that is Africa is, is rife with natural resources, right?
Speaker 1 00:26:40 There's no land in this world, or as, as rich in resources as Africa. Um, we export a lot of what, uh, comes out of that. And it's moving from exporting to actually, uh, producing and selling or exporting the, um, produced goods, right? So the, the not raw material, but uh, finally, uh, moving into to production, I think that, um, it's hard for me to answer what is that big thing, because I think it's going to be, uh, production moving from, uh, exporting raw material to, to, to produce goods. I think it's going to be the FinTech space, uh, site is talking about. I think that's really, really exciting. Um, I think, um, I think it's going to be, how do I say it? I think it's going to be, well, there's the, there's the business sector, but that is a little broad. Yeah, yeah. I'll leave it at those two because my mind is kind of racing there.
Speaker 1 00:27:33 But I think the FinTech space for sure, I think the textile industry, like I talked about, uh, you know, uh, the industry is beginning to realize that they need more options, right? So we look to China for the longest and there's nothing wrong with that, but there needs to be that space. Um, oil is another one that's really, uh, you know, we're finding oil in African. I think it's really, um, also adding to the mix as well. Well, that's great. Well, from listening to being actively involved to understanding opportunities and recognizing a rich culture, yes, recognizing and respecting and respecting a rich culture, recognizing the youthfulness of the country. Although the country has one of the longest histories and legacies, there are youthful country at this point in terms of age and really working together, opportunities in Africa seem to abound. Jackie Kean, thank you so much for joining us, and thank you Sci Nash Carter for joining us from South Africa. Thank you. We invite you to subscribe to the Definitive Sustainability Perspectives podcast on iTunes, Spotify, our, wherever you stream your content. What did you think about the podcast? Leave us a review on iTunes or follow us on LinkedIn and Twitter for updates on our show. Thank you for joining. See you next time.
